10 Law and Sin (Romans 7:7-25)

Krisan Marotta: Wednesday in the Word, a women's ministry of Trinity Presbyterian Church in Charlottesville, Virginia. Today is November 9th, 2005. Our passage is Romans chapter seven, verse seven to twenty-five. Okay, we're back in Romans seven now. I tell you, I became a Christian when I was in high school through Young Life. How many I bet there are other people here who came became anybody else can become a Christian through Young Life? No? I usually find one or two when I say that. Um I didn't know it at the time, but most of my friends were already believers, and um so of course they were farther down this straight and narrow path than I, and I I really began trying to be like them. So I noticed at Young Life meetings that they had these Bibles and they would like write notes in them and underline things. So I thought, ooh, I want my Bible to look like that too. So I went out and got these colored pens and I'd kind of, you know, look and see what somebody else was underlining, and then I'd underline it too, you know, and I really had no idea what I was doing. But it was all for show because I wanted to be like all the other Christians. Um until I discovered Romans 7.15. That was a turning point for me. That verse, I do not understand my own actions, for I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. I thought, finally, something in the Bible makes sense. I could I read this verse and I thought, that's me. So, you know, I underlined that one twice. Because at that point, I was I had grown up in a um non-Christian home and I had very, very little knowledge, and I was beginning to wonder if maybe I should pray that sinner's prayer again because I didn't think it took the first time. You know, I was expecting this radical personality change, and unfortunately that didn't happen. So finally I came to Romans 7. It's like someone described the life that I was living, and I had this impression that once you became a Christian, you know, it was smooth sailing from here on out. And uh when my life continued to be this kind of mixture of tragedy and triumph, I was confused. So I love this passage we're gonna cover today. It was a turning point in my life. I felt like when I came to Romans 7, I finally understood the gospel, even though I'd been a Christian for about a year, I finally understood it in a deeper way. So let me just review where we are in the book. Hopefully you can do this review by now. Um chapter 1 tells us that we all sinned, that we now experience death, and that God abandoned us to that sin and death. Chapter 2 tells us that no one is saved by keeping the law, not the moral person, the religious person. No one is exempt from the disease of sin. And chapter three, then he announces finally the good news that we can be justified by trusting that God will forgive us because of Jesus' death on the cross. And chapter four, he argues that even Abraham and David were justified by their faith. He uses them an example that they did not, were not justified by works. And because justification is based on a promise, it's guaranteed and open to everyone who believes, not just to the physical Jews or those born Jewish. Chapter 5, then, he argues that because we've been justified by faith, we have a reason to rejoice because we now have hope of the glory of God, and that is guaranteed because God loves us. That brings us to chapter six, which is the next major section of the book, which is what we're where we are now. And now he's taking objections or questions to the gospel of, you know, okay, if that's true, is this slipping or am I imagining it? Is that better? It's going down. The microphone is sinking. I bet I'm supposed to adjust something, huh? Oh, over there. Thank you. What would we do without Michelle? All right, so the first question we looked at uh a couple weeks ago, and that was okay, Paul, your gospel implies that we should keep sinning to glorify God, because the more we sin, the more God has to forgive, and the more he has to forgive, the more he's glorified. So we should continue to pursue sin. And Paul says, no, that's not what I'm saying, because part of the gift is saving us from our sinfulness, and so to continue to pursue the very thing God is saving us from would be to make a mockery of his gift. The second objection then we looked at last week, and that was, well, without the law as a threat over us, there's no reason not to sin, because if I'm forgiven either way, why not just go sin? Because there's no there's no punishment, there's no threat anymore. And Paul says, there is still a consequence to our sin, and that is death, as we defined it. The bitterness, the frustration, the brokenness, the loneliness, the sharp tongues, all the things that make our lives weary and and draining are the result of death in our lives. And then he concludes that section by saying the law wasn't an incentive anyway, because all the law did was force us to rely on ourselves and we can only find sin there. And that was the first six verses of the chapter. I'm gonna summarize that for you. I didn't think I did a very good job last week. So I'm gonna try to quickly whoop, how's that review those first six verses? And that was he in 7-1, he says the law is binding while we are alive, and he makes an analogy between marriage and um our sinfulness. And the analogy is that the marriage law binds a woman to a man for life. When if her husband dies, that marriage law is revoked and she's no longer bound to him. So her husband's death frees her from the obligation to that marriage, and to form a new relationship. So he says if while the marriage law is in place that she commits adultery, the law would condemn her, but after her husband's death, if she marries another, there is no condemnation. And the point he's making, the reality, the analogy he's trying to draw is the law bound us to our flesh, and by flesh he means everything we are apart from God. So our self-effort, everything we can do on our own without the resources of God. So the law bound us to our flesh for life. Since we died to sin metaphorically in Christ, we are no longer bound to that law. And Christ's death frees us then from our obligation to sin and to a new relationship with God. So he says, under the law we had no resources other than our own sinfulness to fulfill the law. So all the law did was arouse our sin. It made it forced us to try, and the harder we tried, the more we saw we couldn't do it, and in that sense, it multiplied or aroused our sin. Under grace, we now have the resources of God imparting his spirit to us to write the law in our hearts so that we can fulfill it. Now we do it in part now, but ultimately we we will be eventually completely righteous in heaven. So that raises the question we're gonna talk about today. Well, the the next question is then, well, okay, Paul, if you're telling me that the law just promotes our sin, then the law must be a bad thing. And why would God give us this bad thing? Why must the law must be evil, the law must be bad, and that's where he's gonna pick up today. Now just to um yeah, is everyone I still should done with that? Anybody need that up? No, keep it up a little bit longer. Uh just a note, watch the way he uses the word law in this chapter. He uses it two different ways. He uses the same word, but it sometimes early in the chapter, he's referring to the Mosaic law, the actual written code. When it gets down, like into verse 21, he'll talk about the law of sin and what he means there is this principle of sin or this force of sin. He's not talking about a written code there. So, just as a Bible study note, something to be aware of. Okay, so let me just give you an overview of where we're going, and then we're gonna take it section by section. So the objection he's looking at now is if the law only gives us the opportunity to do evil, so the law promotes our evil behavior, in a sense, as Paul has just claimed, then the law must be this evil destructive thing. But we know that the law was given by God Himself, and it couldn't be a bad thing. So why would God give us this bad thing, or is God bad to give us this? So, Paul, your gospel must be wrong. What you're saying isn't true. Paul's answer is no, the law is a good thing because it alerts us to our sinfulness, and that's a great blessing. So his first answer again is absolutely not. He says the law tells us that we are sinful so that we can then turn and look for a savior. So the law accomplishes two things. It clarifies what's true, i.e., we're sinful, and it intensifies us. It makes us aware of it so that we can't escape it. And that's what God designed it to do, and that's a great blessing. That's a wonderful thing. Okay, that's essentially the whole chapter. But we're gonna go into a little more detail. So let's read verses seven. We're gonna start in Romans chapter seven, verse seven, and go to thirteen for right now. What then shall we say that the law that the law is sin? By no means. Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had said you shall not covet. But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetedness. Apart from the law, sin lies dead. I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. The very commandment that promised life proved to be death for me. For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. Did that which is good then bring death to me? By no means. It was sin producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin. So there's the objection. Well, are am I saying that the law is sin? And he says, no, because without the law I would not have understood that sin is this overwhelming force within me, that something I couldn't control. So he's highlighting the tenth commandment, I think, because it's different. It's the first nine commandments you could obey outwardly and think you were doing pretty good. But the tenth commandment is very clearly an inward thing. It has to do with coveting. Coveting is wanting something you don't have, or greedily longing for what is not yours, resenting people that have something you lack or more than you do. And you can be very religious on the outside and covet on the inside, and no one else will know. It's not something that you can see. So Paul, as a Pharisee, would have studied the law, he would have defined all its nuances and debated probably its finer points and probably strived. And and he says in Philippians, he did a pretty good job of keeping the law outwardly. But then he comes to this tenth commandment that says, you can't even want to do it. It's not enough that you don't do it. You don't even, you're not even supposed to want to sin. And now he knows he has a problem. So when he says, if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. He's not saying, oh, I was making this list of here's right and here's wrong, and I had coveting on the right side, now I realize, oh, I have to move it over to the wrong side, it's a wrong thing. He's not saying, oh, there's this laundry list and I figured out what was dirty and what was clean. What he's saying is I wouldn't have understood that I was sinful if it hadn't been for the commandment. Not that this was right and this is wrong, but that there was something in me that was beyond my control. There was this principle of sin that was deeply embedded in me and I couldn't change it. That's what he's saying. Let me give you an analogy. Suppose you have cancer and you don't know it. So you get up in the morning and maybe your throat's a little dry and you cough a little bit, and you think, oh, you know, it's okay, get a cup of coffee and you're on your way, and then you notice you've got this spot or mark on your arm, and you think, well, I was just out in the sun, it's no big deal. And you carry on assuming you're a healthy person. But now you get diagnosed with cancer. Now you get up in the morning and your throat's a little dry and you immediately go, okay, it's pneumonia. I know it is. It's something bad, something horrible. You know, I'm coughing, it must be, and you start imagining all the things that that could be going on, and the despair begins to fill your life. So you start measuring, you know, every drop of sweat and every cough and every ache and pain, wondering what it all means. And you see that spot on your arm, and you think, oh no, it I'm sure I'm dying now, it's cancer. The fact of the matter is you're no more or less healthy when you knew and you didn't know. So your health was the same, but now all of a sudden you know. And that's what Paul's saying. He was just as sinful before the law came as after the law came, but now he knows he's sinful. Now he sees, he has this opportunity to reflect, to despair, to worry, to see life in a different perspective. His diagnosis changes everything. And I think that's what he's saying here. The law is our diagnosis. It holds up a mirror and says, You're sick, you've got this disease of sin. Now, we were just as sinful before the law told us as we are after, but now we know. Just to give you another analogy, um, assume you're you and your small group are on a river rafting trip, you know, and you're down, you're floating down the river in your raft, but you don't have any oars, so you're stuck, you can't get out. Um, but it's this great sunny day, and the birds are singing, and you know, there are trees and clouds to look at and a light breeze, and everybody's talking and having a great time. And it's a great experience for everyone except the one person who looked at the map. And they know that around the corner is this waterfall, and you're all going to get swamped. Now, the sun is still out, the birds are still singing, everybody's having a good time, except this one person who knows what's coming. For them, it's it's awful. For them, it's this tragedy. It's the it's oh no, what are we going to do? That's the kind of thing that Paul's talking about here. When he says, I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died, he was just as sinful before and after the law, but now he knows. It's like now he's looked at the map, and now he knows that when he where he thought he was healthy or he thought it was a great day, and there was nothing to be worried about, now he knows he's in trouble. Um before the law he was morally naive, if you if you want to use that that term, but the law shook him awake. So he thought he was fine, he thought he was alive, he thought he was happy, he was gonna live forever, he's making all these foolish assumptions. The law comes along and says, No, you're living under a death sentence. And that's what he means by sin sprang to life, or sin came alive. It's now I know that I have a problem. So apart from the law, sin lies dead, I didn't know. I was sinful, but I didn't know I was I was sinful. I was once alive, the same thing. I was blissfully morally naive, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. I realized I was in trouble. And that I think is what the law does for all of us. Now, it's important to note he's not describing the kind of rebellion you sometimes see in your kids where you say, Don't cross that line, and they look at you and they go, you know, and they cross the line. That's not the rebellion he's talking about. He's talking about the rebellion of a child who sincerely wants to obey, who wants to be different, and finds he can't. That's what Paul's describing. He wanted to keep the law, he agreed with the law, he thought the law was a good thing. As a Pharisee, he probably would have debated it and loved it. But when it all comes down to it, he can't. He can't keep the law, and that's the problem. So this is not the defiant, premeditated kind of rebellion of a child who says, no, I'm not going to do it that way. This is more like a smoker who finds out they're addicted. He's addicted to sin. He can't stop. So this is a child who wants to stop, you know, fighting with his sister or whatever, but can't. No matter how much you resolve, no matter how much you try, no matter how much willpower and ignorance you try to overcome, you still sin. So that's what he's describing in those first up to 13. Then he comes, he summarizes that with a another objection. And 12, so the law is holy and the commandment is holy and righteous and good, because it showed me that I was sinful, and that's a wonderful thing. Did that which is good then bring death to me? It's kind of a side objection. And he says, by no means. It was sin producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin. So in verse 12, he summarizes that section and says, The law is holy and righteous and good, and it did me an incredible favor. Without the law, I would not have known the depth of my sinfulness and my need for a savior. The follow-up objection then is, Well, did this good thing, because it condemned you, is that a source of death? Is that a source of condemnation? And he says, No, what condemns me is my sin. I'm condemned because I'm sinful, not because of the law. The law re just reveals the reality of my sinfulness. Um, so it reveals my situation so that I know where I'm headed, but I'm condemned because I'm sinful. And I was sinful before the law came. So the law doesn't condemn me. I condemn myself. Okay, so verse 14 then, we're gonna go on. Notice the tense changes. Now he starts speaking in present tense, which I find very comforting. Um let's look at 14 through, let's go to 24. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am a flesh sold under sin. And again, by flesh in this section, I think he's not referring specifically to our body, but everything we are apart from God. So my own self-effort, whatever I am without the resources of God. For I know that the law is spiritual, but I am a flesh sold under sin. I do not understand my own actions, for I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind, and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death. So just to return to my to the analogy Paul started in the first six chapters, and let me see if I can give you what he's describing here. Um imagine we're going back to this woman who's married to an abusive man, and we'll say, for the sake of analogy, she's married to an abusive man, and now he dies, and she's married to a new man who's wonderful and loving and kind and good, and she's deeply committed to him and wants to honor him and wants to respect him, but she still has this problem. She still is scared because she has all these memories and these reactions and this training from her old husband, so that you know, when her new husband gives her a gift, she instead of saying, Oh, he just is doing that because he loved me, she thinks, okay, what's the catch? There must be a hook in here, there must be a problem. Um, he's trying there, you know, I did something wrong. Um, and so she reacts to him like she might have reacted to her first abusive husband who humiliated her and lied to her and twisted everything positive into something negative. So she ends up maybe lying or deceiving the new husband even when he did nothing to deserve it, because she's living out all the things she learned in her first marriage, and she hates it, but she can't stop. That's the situation Paul's describing. Now, having metaphorically died with Christ, we have this new love, this new law that we want to keep, but we can't. We are still trapped, in a sense, in that sinfulness. So there's this dilemma of the Christian life that, as he says, what where is that? I um I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. And that is our lot at this point, and this side of heaven, I think. Um the distinction between I and my sin is not a distinction between any kind of um theological entity. It's my desire and my ability. And I think that's all he's saying in 15 and 16 um when it says it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. It is no longer my desires, but I still do it. He's making a distinction between what he wants to do and what he's able to do. Now, this I don't think this is a the devil made me do it kind of approach. He's not somehow trying to shift responsibility and say, it's not really my fault, I'm just a victim here. It's not, you know, it's somebody else's to blame, because he concludes. This with wretched man that I am, who will save me from this body of death? He's accepting full responsibility. He knows he's in trouble. He knows he's got a problem. So he's not separating himself from his responsibility or accountability. He's embracing it, but he knows he's trapped. So he's saying, ultimately, what I found out is no matter how much I resolve not to sin or how much willpower I muster up, I still sin. What do I do? So again, imagine like a cheap made-for-TV movie where the pilot in an airplane is headed for a mountain, and the flight controllers are saying, You're headed for a mountain, you've got to do something, and the pilot says, Don't worry, I've got it under control. I know how to fly this plane, I know how to control it, there's no problem because all we've got to do is turn this little stick here and it's going to change. So when they get close to the mountain, they turn the stick to avoid it and find out, whoops, that doesn't work. The thing that I thought was controlling me is not controlling me. The thing that controlled the plane is not it. The only way I know how to fly doesn't work. That's what Paul's saying. He's convinced that he wants to keep the law, that the law is good and holy and it's and he loves it, he embraces it, but he can't. The problem is not ignorance, the problem is not lack of willpower, the problem is he's sinful. So when he finally realizes that he can't just resolve to stop sinning and it works forever, he has this problem. That's the distinction between the I and my sin. It's this principle of evil. Now we know why that is from chapter one. Remember this situation with the hands, my hand analogy. God abandoned us to our sin and death. He made us prisoners of it. So it should be no surprise that we're now trapped because God is the only source of life and righteousness and goodness, and under the law, he's not granting it anymore. The problem of his wrath must be solved before that problem is going to be solved. So Paul's already told us why theologically we're in that state. Um he's going to go on in chapter 8 to give us the answer. And all of chapter 8 is really the answer to the question, wretched man that I am, who will save me from this body of death? And you know the answer. Um, but the point I think he's making is sin is beyond our control, in a sense. We could find out that sin is genetic and it would not be surprising. You know, our society has this view that if I don't have a choice to make, it's not wrong. So if I didn't choose to be a homosexual, it was just this learned behavior, then it's not wrong. Or if I don't have a choice to be an alcoholic, it's just in my genes, it's just in my parenting, the way I was raised. It's not wrong. And I think Paul's theology would say you don't have a choice over any of your sins. It's not like we can just decide to stop being angry or lustful or selfish or vain or whatever it is. There's a sense in which we can decide all we want, and apart from the grace of God, we're not going to get anywhere. So if you decide, you know, I won't get angry anymore, it's not going to work, or I'm not going to covet anymore, it's not going to work. Apart from God's work in our life, you can't choose to stop sinning because God abandoned us to sin and death. So that leads him to the conclusion in 24, wretched man that I am, who will save me? Who will get me out of this problem of I have the desire now to do right and I lack the ability? And the answer is thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. Again, I have the desire to keep the law, but I lack the ability. But the answer that is coming is God's going to solve that problem. He's going to work at a level to change who we are fundamentally so that we can now begin to keep the law. And he kind of gets ahead of himself when he says, thanks be to God, because he he doesn't really answer the question until the rest of the chapter. But he's so excited, I think he can't hold it back. So as we go, I'm not going to answer the question because we're going to take chapter 8 in three sections because there's so much in it. And it really all of it is the answer to that question. So in the last 15 minutes, I'm going to finally tell you what I promised you. I'm going to give you this discussion of election and free will that keeps coming up. So it comes up quite obviously in this passage, I think, of the problem of I have the desire but not the ability, so how can God condemn me? If I'm not capable of being righteous, how can God condemn me for being sinful? Or the other way to say it is if I don't really have a choice because I'm just a sinful person, then how do I have any free will at all? Now, I'm let me warn you, I'm not going to answer all your questions. I'm not arrogant enough to think that after 2,000 years I'm the first person to figure this out. I s know smarter minds than I are still debating it, and and I know there this will not answer all your questions. It's the best I can do at this point with what I know. And I for me it goes a long way to solving the problem. So, yes, at the end of this, you're gonna say, well, but what about this? Yes, there are still questions left. I'll I warn you in advance. The other thing is I don't expect you to agree with all of this necessarily. It's a sticky, wicked kind of theological problem, and different people will untangle it different ways, different denominations untangle it different ways. Um what I'm gonna tell you makes sense to me, uh and given what I know of the Bible. So let me I have a another hand up. Oops. Thank you. You can adjust that for me. So here's the problem. We have this paradox of God is completely sovereign and I am responsible. So how do we how do we put all that together? The Bible teaches that God saves us and God chooses us, and yet we're morally accountable for our our disobedience. How can those things be true when they seem to contradict each other? So the model that most people try to live with is what I've I've put up here. That under a view of divine sovereignty, God determines my choices. But if I'm human under human responsibility or free will, I determine my choices within my free will. Um the other way to look at it is God ultimately determines my salvation, that is, God chooses me, or I choose determine my salvation, that is, I choose God, and the implications of that are directly contradictory. Either I'm under God's sovereignty, I'm not responsible for my sinful choices, I can't hinder God's grace, my inherited inheritance is certain, and I can't work diligently for my sanctification because it's ultimately up to God. Under human responsibility, I am responsible for my sinful choices. I can hinder God's grace, and my inheritance is not certain because I have to work at it at my sanctification. And this is what most people say. Well, I'm asked to believe this. The problem with this is how do you live your life? You can't live a contradiction. When I go out tomorrow and I make choices, I either have to act as if God is in control or I am, as if I am not responsible for my choices or I am, if I can or I can't hinder God's grace. That, I mean, nobody can live like this. You have to pick one or the other, is what it ultimately happens. And in the Reformed tradition, we tend to lean toward the blue side or the divine sovereignty. Other traditions will lean toward the human responsibility side. So how do we affirm both? How do we how do we say the Bible teaches this what makes sense? Um because we may want them to be both both to be true theologically, but when it comes to my life and my day-to-day living, I have to choose. I have to live one way or the other. So how do we reconcile this? I'm going to give you my best attempt, and as I said, it's it's just I would say toward a solution, but not the full solution yet. Should I people want to leave that up a little more? I should have zeroized this and just giving you his hand up. But this is the wrong view, so don't write this down. Um just to get started, I think the way to reconcile this is to understand what do we mean by free will. There are um there are different ways in which we can define free, and that leads either to a contradiction or not a contradiction. So let me start there. What I want to suggest to you is that free will is uncoerced but not undetermined. So a free choice is a choice that has not been coerced, but it is determined, and I'm going to define those. If I come up to Libby and I hold a gun to our head and I say, Libby, you want to go shopping with me today, don't you? And she would she would say, Oh, of course, Crissan, I'd love to. None of us would say she's made a free choice. I've coerced her, I've threatened her by holding the gun to her head. She didn't really have a free choice. That's what I mean by a coerced. There's some outside force making you choose something you would not normally choose. You were either threatened or forced into it or coerced into it. And we tend to think that God is coercing us into a choice, and therefore we're not free. And what I want to suggest to you is that God never coerces us to do anything. And it's a false dichotomy. It's not that you are either coerced or you have free will. There's another option. I would say we have a determined choice, and a determined choice is one that is predicted by my nature. So if you ask me, just for my own example, if you ask me if I like asparagus, I'll say no. Because I hate asparagus and I always have, and I probably always will, and I don't know why. Everybody goes, you don't like asparagus? I just don't. And when I was growing up, my mom would try to like hide it in casseroles and soups and things because she was convinced this was a childish thing I would outgrow. And I would always find it. The first bite I'd say, Does this have asparagus in it? Now, if you ask my husband if he likes asparagus, he will he will love it and he will jump at the chance. And he loves it when we go to fancy restaurants and they serve asparagus because he gets a double portion. You know, he gets mine too. Now, there's something about him that makes him like asparagus. I'm sure it's a defective taste bite or something. But I don't have that. I don't like it. Now, um, what determines that choice? It's just who I am. And what I want to suggest to you is that all your choices are determined by something. Your biology, your experience, the way you were raised, your body chemistry, whether or not you have PMS, um genetics, social conditioning, your cultural background, your emotional state at the time, all those things. So if I go to Libya and I say, Do you want to go shopping? She's not choosing in a vacuum. There's something about her that will make her say yes or make her say no, depending on who she is, how she was raised, if she has money or not, if she's, you know, she likes being around me or not. Um, and that all those things determine her choice. So there are things about you that make you like, say, chocolate, or make you like asparagus. I don't know why, but you know, there are some people that like asparagus. Um, whether you might be a morning person or a night person, or you like sports, or you like dance, or you like music, or you don't, or you like reading or gardening. All those things that make you you determine how you're going to choose and react in any given situation. Now, I'm going to call that your nature, and now you see where I'm headed. When you choose, you choose in accordance with your nature. So my nature hates asparagus. I will never choose it. I have freely, uncoercibly chosen to avoid asparagus. But it's not, I didn't make that choice in a vacuum. It's based on who I am. So I like to sew, I like to read, I like to think a certain way, I react a certain way, and all those things are determined who I am, you know, and we could define it as my soul, my personality, my body chemistry, biology, whatever. All those things that have worked and shaped me into who I am determine my choices. So my free will is uncoerced, but it is determined by my nature. And my nature is sinful. So when I choose, I will choose sinful things. I have freely chosen sinful things because that's who I am. No one's holding a gun to my head, no one's twisting my arm. I've chosen on the basis of who I am. So what God does is change our natures. He can work at that deeper level so that now when I have a choice, maybe in heaven I'll even like asparagus. I don't know. Um, I doubt it. But hopefully it won't exist in heaven. That's you know, anyway. So the problem is our natures are broken. When our kids were little, we used to tell them they had broken choosers. So that thing inside them that made them choose A or B or left or right or good or bad was broken. And no matter how hard they resolved to choose right, their chooser was broken and left to themselves, they couldn't choose otherwise. Um I can't fix it because my chooser is broken. So that's the toddler theology way of saying I have a sinful nature, and left to myself, I will choose sin. So what God does is work at that deepest level of whatever makes me me, and he fixes my broken chooser. He fixes my broken nature so that now when I have a choice, I no longer choose sin. The first thing he fixes is our desire. So now we want to choose righteousness. We hunger and thirst for it, we long for it, but he doesn't, in his grace and his purposes, fix the ability as quickly as he fixes the desire. So we're stuck in this problem of I want to do right, but I lack the ability. And insofar as God has changed me, I will begin to make those choices. Insofar as he has not changed me yet, I will still choose sinful things. So my free will is determined by my nature, but I have freely chosen whatever I'm choosing. God is not twisting my arm, he's not forcing me to choose against my nature, but he can change us at the very level of who we are. So, let me just summarize that. How would I put that all together? This is my purple, you know, because red and blue make purple. But I didn't want to make the whole thing purple because I thought that would be a little overwhelming. So, how do you resolve God is sovereign and we are responsible? I would say my choices are determined within my will by my nature. Insofar as I am sinful, I will choose sin. Insofar as God has changed me, I will not. Um, my nature is sinful and I am unable to change it left to myself. That's this problem. I am a prisoner of sin and death unless God rescues me. God is not obligated to change my nature. And I think those two points are the things we miss. Um I think that's to me that's the key to the puzzle. I can't change my nature, but God can, but he's not required to. There is nothing I do that forces him to now save me, or that requires him to save me, or there's no divine spark in me that says, now God must save me. And even faith itself is a gift from God. It's not something I do that now requires him to change me. So God ultimately determines my salvation as an act of grace. The implications of that are I am responsible for my sinful choices because I am a sinful person and I would choose them because that's who I am. But if I have saving faith in Jesus, my sins are covered by grace. They're forgiven. So God has taken the steps to solve that problem. I cannot hinder God's grace because it's part of the gift. God has chosen to, for whatever reasons, save me, and he's not obligated to, and I can't stop him. That's what we learned in chapters five in chapter five. My inheritance is certain, again, because it is a gift of God. And sanctification is the result of God changing my nature. So that means my obedience is the fruit of God's work in my life, not the root of it. So, insofar as I am obedient, I can look at that and say, Thank thanks be to God. He has worked in my life and changed me, but it's not the cause of his changing me. When I do good things, it's not the requirement that now God has to change me. It's the result of his work in my life and changing me. So let's see. Now, there's one more question this raises, and that is, well, how can God hold us accountable for being sinful if we were just born that way? And Paul's gonna answer that in chapter nine. So we're not gonna answer that today. So if you ask me that in questions, I'm gonna tell you wait for chapter nine. And we're gonna do that after Christmas, so you have to come back. If that sounds like a bribe, it is. So just a warning. So let's see. Well, let me questions on this before we wrap it up, or what I said, I'm sure there must be, but you probably need some time to digest it. Yes. Yes, you can have copies of this. In fact, I'll go do that during the break and bring back this one. The good, the good, the the resolution, not the others. Yeah. Did that help? Thinking about the distinction between coerced and determined. Speaker 1: Yes. Krisan Marotta: Uh-huh. I think so, yes. Election and who God changes who he will say that's like God chooses me, I don't choose him. He chooses me first, I guess would be the way to say it, yeah. Uh-huh. Um, it's in well, chapter nine, he's gonna address it directly. But it's also, you know, in Ephesians, the first two chapters of Ephesians, and it's in 1 John, and there are quite a few other places where I think that's hot. But yes, he's going to address it in nine, and I'll warn you, you're not gonna like the answer. Yes. Okay. All right, I'll try I'll somehow try to give an answer. Yes. Speaker 4: So I can't say that. Right. Krisan Marotta: Right. Okay. I think I see. I don't know if this will help. The question is, God's not obligated to change my nature, but he wants me to be a righteous and good person. So why am I still here sinning? Why wouldn't he just change us right now or maybe quicker? Or why leave us in our sin? I can't answer all of that, but I think I can get to part of it. I think part of it, what's going on is in this life, I think God's primary agenda is to make us people of faith and not righteous people, completely righteous. And so his goal is to make us mature and trusting in our faith, not necessarily perfectly obedient. And so he may let us continue in a sin, because that's the tool he's using to rub off those rough edges or to make us more people who trust him, to keep us on our knees so that we don't get arrogant and think, ooh, I did this on my own, kind of thing. So I think that knowing that I think his main agenda right now is to make us faithful, not necessarily perfectly obedient, but that's coming in the next life, is is the one way. So he's not leaving us in our sin to be cruel. I think he's leaving us in our sin to display partly his character, his graciousness and goodness, and um to work on our characters to make us more faithful people. Does that help? So I I don't know, but I'll give you an I'll give you my best shot answer at that one. How can we be rewarded if we had nothing to do with it? If God's really the one changing us. Um one thing I think to remember is to think about what we're getting from. versus what we're doing. I mean, if you look at um, like if I tell my son, if you take the trash out, I'll give you a million dollars. And he does it, and I give him a million dollars, can you really say he earned it? No, because what I gave him is so out of proportion to what he did. Well God's grace is the million dollars and our part in the scheme is taking out the trash. And yes, it's a reward but it's not like we earned it in any sense of the word earning. So I think there's partly that. I mean we um and the response is not I think while um yeah that's not a good way to say it um I think what what he wants primarily is for us to be grateful and to realize what he's done for us. And that that, you know, that we are here glorifying him and to show that aspect of his character and he delays his judgment and his punishment long enough to bring at least some to fate. And the response I don't think on our part would shouldn't be well why don't you make me better or easier or something it's thank you for saving me at all. Why does he do things the way he does? I don't I mean why does it have to be so hard? I don't know. I I would like to I mean I would like for it to be easier and I'm sure a lot of everybody else does so I don't know God is who he is. Speaker 1: I mean that's where we come back to those passages where he says my ways are not your ways and my thoughts are not your thoughts he has a reason and we've we haven't have seen enough of his character to know that we can trust him and that he knows what he's doing and he's demonstrated this incredible love so I think at that point we have to say he knows what he's doing even when we don't did that help for a little bit maybe no I'll think about it see if I can come up with a better answer yes I think the short answer is I disagree with that view. Krisan Marotta: But the the question was is Paul describing in Romans 7 a pre-Christian or a post-Christian so pre-receiving the spirit versus what what do you mean by that? Speaker 1: He's describing that these believers that Paul is looking at in terms of being born of the spirit but not indwelled yet because that's going to come in chapter 8. Krisan Marotta: And that that is he's not the only one that holds that view. Speaker 1: I don't which sort of I mean it makes the struggle make more sense. Krisan Marotta: It makes the problem with I have with that view is after receiving the spirit we still have the struggle. I mean look everyone in this room if we took a vote you know and so we'd either have to say none of us have received the spirit or he means something else. Yes but that is there are and I should probably have brought that up though so thank you for bringing it there there are people who come to Romans 7 and say Paul is describing his pre-Christian experience and that this where he says I will have the desire but not the ability that that changes after conversion. Right. Speaker 1: He's saying the pre without form of spirit Pentecost right you know but that is everybody looking for Abraham and all the people that were born the spirit but not indwelt the spirit right the problem is where does that leave us? From the Spirit. Krisan Marotta: The problem with that view is where does that leave us? Because we're post Pentecost so yeah um the other question I have with that which I would love to ask him if he was here is okay how do I get the Spirit indwelt? If it's something I do to get the Spirit to indwell me then what happened to the first five chapters of Romans? I mean I think Paul's pretty clear that all of this is a gift of God and now if there's if God's gift only goes to here and now I have to do something to get the next step that that contradicts most of Romans to me. So that that's why I would disagree with the view that says this is a a a pre-Pentecost conversion that there's some other step of the Holy Spirit that we need. If that's true it's still got to be up to God. Right. And we still struggle anyway we're not yet so he would say Romans 7 doesn't apply to us today where we uh or that if we are struggling it's yeah yeah see that's that's the problem I have if it doesn't apply to us and now there's something I have to do sanctification is back on my shoulders. And I don't think Romans teaches that. I don't think you can get that from five or first John or Ephesians the first several chapters Galatians. And not in person that's why there are many commentaries on Romans and they all don't agree and well there will probably be many more yes though. Am I discussing limited atonement? I wasn't planning on it chapter nine though we will a little bit obviously post-adam Oh I think so post-Adam yes Adam started the home but Adam did not have a birthday that would be my understanding that somehow he was different than us and what we inherited from him was the brokenness well he he had an ability that we didn't have I think probably similar to what Jesus had Jesus whatever kind of nature Jesus had in his human side is probably what Adam had but I don't know that the Bible ever directly addresses that but that just seems to make sense to me. Because I think Jesus had a real choice when he was faced with the temptations in the garden I think he had real choices to make that wasn't a you know there was a possibility that he could fail in s in so far as he was human but he didn't so all right I do need to wrap this up let me just pray to close us thank you for such great questions and your great attention I know this is a sticky wicket but it's so much fun to talk about. And Livvy has announcements and I remembered so I'm gonna give her some time for announcements. Father thank you that you're a God who saves us and we just pray um that you would help us to keep turning to you for the answers. We know that we don't have them all we know that it's confusing that things don't make sense but we just pray that you would keep throwing away the the things that we've misunderstood, the words that are confusing, the things that don't um create light and bringing us more to a place of understanding, of faithfulness, of trusting you and holding on to your word and what we know to be true. Thank you that we have the chance to be here to think these things through, to talk about them, to study your word in freedom and openness and we just pray that you would be writing it all on our hearts, making us more people who trust you. In Jesus' name. Amen